Parking Brakes: Do We Really Need'm?

"brzedr1" (brzedr1) 01/08/2015 at 11:15 • Filed to: None

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My father and I have a running disagreement over parking brakes. Are they necessary, or should I just stop it?

His driveway is relatively flat, but if he stops far enough forward, the front sits a few inches lower than the rear.

He shuts off his Silverado 1500, and throws it in park - no parking brake. He steps off the brake pedal, and I hear a nice lurching noise as the weight of the truck comes to rest against the pawl in the auto box - ping!

I've explained this, but he's not moved. Does he risk a costly repair by scoffing at such a simply component, or am I just complicating the issue?

How can I convince a nonbeliever?

Brian Silvestro > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:16

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For automatics they seem useless, but for manuals they're used all the time.

Textured Soy Protein > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:17

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I always used the parking brake when I drove stick shift cars. Now I have a 135is DCT and a Grand Cherokee with a regular torque converter automatic. For whatever reason I always use the parking brake in the 135is but never in the Jeep. I guess because the DCT isn't a "regular" automatic I feel like I'm supposed to use the parking bake as if it were a stick shift.

ttyymmnn > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:17

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I'm no expert, but I'm guessing there is no great risk, since only about 10% of people (entirely non-scientific number) actually use their PB and there are no reports of massive transmission failures. FWIW, I always use my PB in my manual Golf, and always use it in my Odyssey out of habit.

505Turbeaux > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:18

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in my state whether you use it or not, it will get pulled once a year during inspection. If it seizes, you are up shits creek with a car that needs to be towed out of the inspection station, or you pay them to fix it. So I use mine even in automatics often enough to keep it working. I see it being more valuable to have the lever style, the foot style is useless in my opinion. Hand style for fun and when stuck in snow in a RWD

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:18

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If he's close to a flat, he *probably* doesn't risk the pawl being worn out. That being said, if it ever does wear out/fail and he doesn't have the brake on...

Also, he ought to use the brake at least sometimes to keep it freed up and the brakes adjusted. Obviously.

sefeing, actually bought an E46 > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:20

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doesn't hurt. Takes some stress off the transmission / driveline mounts and what not. I use in my manual FoST of course, but also use it out of habit on my dads Prius and moms Matrix. Never hurts to have backups just in case.

McMike > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:22

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The only time to convince a non-believer is while giving them a ride to the rental car place to get a car while their car is in the shop after rolling away when they thought it was in park/gear.

He's been driving forever without a problem, so there's no changing his mind.

Even though I don't think I have ever heard of a parking prawl failing or needing replacement, it's just good habit to use the parking brake.

All the cars. All the time.

brzedr1 > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 11:23

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Maine right? I'm in Maryland, where we have a one-time inspection only. I have a lever-style in my dd personally, manual rwd all day!

Meatcoma > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:23

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A buddy of mine had a Dodge ram 1500 4x4 that burnt up at the top of a parking garage. When the tow truck was towing it out, they could not shift it into neutral and had to drag it out because the truck was lifted and barely made it through the garage normally. It took dragging that thing almost 3 floors to break that parking pin. I think they are built pretty well and would have to have a lot of abuse before they broke from sitting at a slight angle.

brzedr1 > Textured Soy Protein 01/08/2015 at 11:24

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Is it a hand brake? I find myself using those always, even in autos. Foot brakes, not so much..

505Turbeaux > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:24

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the way to be. Yeah Maine. CT used to have the one time inspection, now nothing!

CAR_IS_MI > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:24

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there is a simple way to solve this question. Drive manual...

crowmolly > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:25

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You are correct. Especially for a heavy vehicle.

A costly repair? Maybe, but probably not. He's risking the shifter getting stuck against the pawl more than anything else, and that can lead to a broken shifter cable.

The pawl is also not indestructible and can wear/break leading to a rolling truck.

If you don't believe me, here it is straight from GM Powertrain, out of the 4L60-E tech manual:

Park position enables the engine to be started while

preventing the vehicle from rolling either forward or

backward. For safety reasons, the vehicle's parking

brake should be used in addition to the transmission

"Park" position. Since the output shaft is mechanically

locked to the case through the parking pawl and reaction

internal gear, Park position should not be selected

until the vehicle has come to a complete stop.

brzedr1 > ttyymmnn 01/08/2015 at 11:25

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I will site you as my expert source then! It's a good habit to be in, they add them for a reason, right?

Thanks for your note.

brzedr1 > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 01/08/2015 at 11:28

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Driveway is flat, but just a few feet past the edge is nice steep grade, followed by a forest of mature trees..if anything did break, he'd be SOL.

I'll mention that to him.. Thanks!

Textured Soy Protein > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:31

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They both have hand brakes. I just never really bother with it in the Jeep unless I'm on a steep hill.

brzedr1 > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 11:31

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I went to college in FL for a year - no inspections there. You see some scary stuff, and appreciate why we sometimes need a few regulations.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:32

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Religious parking brake user here. Foot-style, automatic FWD. If I'm on any kind of incline and I toss it in park without pushing the parking brake first it comes to rest on the pawl and is incredibly difficult to get out of Park again.

And yes, I can drift with the foot-pedal. It's more difficult but more effective once you get the hang of it (my leg can apply a lot more force than my arm can; I've used both styles)

brzedr1 > Textured Soy Protein 01/08/2015 at 11:34

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Probably not a bad idea to us parking break with it then; I imagine a DCT repair would be quite costly from BMW.

Great car btw.. Thanks

brzedr1 > McMike 01/08/2015 at 11:35

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Agreed.. Hopefully that will never be the case.

I do think he uses it when attached to a trailer.. there is some hope.

brzedr1 > crowmolly 01/08/2015 at 11:37

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I'll share that with him, as I believe that's exactly the trans on his truck.

Thank you!!

Rock Bottom > Brian Silvestro 01/08/2015 at 11:38

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On enough of a hill, you'll want them in an auto too. I spent 5 years in San Francisco (with a stick) and wouldn't trust a parking pawl. On the other hand, I can't imaging a single place in the great state of Michigan (which I currently reside) where I wouldn't trust that same pawl. Hell, I bet most of the parking brakes in cars in Michigan don't even work. When they don't get exercised, road salt and slush causes the cables and return springs stop doing their jobs!

It really just matters where you live.

ACESandEIGHTS > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:38

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I hate the foot brake because it doesn't feel like it seizes much of the brake at all.

I don't like setting them in freezing weather.

I ought to set it more because my vehicles weigh about as much as your house. This, and I'm guilty of having woken up in the morning, wondered why my pickup is not in my drive, only to have have it drifted down to my neighbor's lawn.

Anyway, I still don't look at a park setting as completely safe. Though if you're not parking on inclines I suppose there isn't much to worry about.

The days of all these idiosyncratic procedures related to cars are pretty much over, thank God. Outside of someone living in like San Francisco or Pittsburgh or the mountains, who even bothers to turn their wheels to the side when parked? E-brakes have gone the same way.

Though they never should've ditched the hand brake on any car. Just a good thing to have.

brzedr1 > Meatcoma 01/08/2015 at 11:39

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That's a good frame of reference. They seem pretty meaty (pun intended), but I would still be concerned about metal shaving off and swimming inside the trans case.

Thanks!

505Turbeaux > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:40

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oh yeah, I know that. Used to be alot of painted over duct tape, now they dont even try to make it look good down there

brzedr1 > ACESandEIGHTS 01/08/2015 at 11:43

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Very true. I can understand foot brakes on certain cars w little in the way of center consoles (ex. minivans) but beyond that, give me something to crank to park.

At least with the hand brake, you're more likely to remember to disengage it.. those red 'Parking Brake' dash lights can be pretty subtle - not something you want.

brzedr1 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/08/2015 at 11:45

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You sir, are adventurous!

I've considered the foot brake drift, but it's quite an operation: left foot on parking brake, left hand on brake release.. Video or it didn't happen!

brzedr1 > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 11:46

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'your car was roadworthy in 1993.. good to know that in 2015' lol

505Turbeaux > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:52

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can the cops give you a inspection ticket down there if it looks/sounds/is messed up? that was the thing. If you got caught with illegal tint you had to get a reinspect, almost nothing else. I used to laugh at all the boneheads that would get banged up for that

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:55

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I use mine if I can feel the slope from where I'm sitting. That said, it's a foot brake, and very easy to forget. If it was a handbrake I probably would use it constantly.

Nibbles > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 11:58

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Pawls are rather robust; it takes a good amount of long-term damage to wear them to the breaking point.

That being said, I use the parking brake in all my vehicles. It functions in my (automatic) Volvo S40 but doesn't work at all in my (manual) Dodge Dakota. I just keep it in gear.

Justin Hughes > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 12:01

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Where in Maine? I've lived in Lewiston, Auburn, and Augusta, and drove all over the state doing delivery work.

brzedr1 > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 12:01

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I don't know with certainty.. I didn't have a car when I was there.

Mac jokes that Florida has zero laws, but something tells me he's not joking..

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 12:02

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always use the parking brake, even on flat surfaces.

I don't know what year the silverado is but if it's too old it sits funny and can slide gears if stressed. (I know from experience in my 88 S10 Blazer that slid over and I couldn't access first or second gear and park turned into the Reverse marker).

If it's more modern it'll hit the parking pawl and your good, but still - why put pressure on a piece in the transmission ($2,000 plus) when you can put it on a $50 cable?!

This has never made sense to me, and I always use parking brake no matter that incline (or lack there of)

505Turbeaux > Justin Hughes 01/08/2015 at 12:02

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Portland, work in Saco, you still here?

Justin Hughes > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 12:05

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I used my parking brake in my P71 in flat parking lots, EXCEPT in serious cold (like today). I agree with those who tell you to use it or lose it, but I've also had the brake freeze on, only to release when driven on for a bit (wearing out the brakes) or it warms up naturally.

Justin Hughes > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 12:07

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No. I'm a native Masshole, and after seven years I finally listened to all of you and went back where I came from!

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 12:07

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In an automatic, I would not use the e-brake unless it was parked on any sort of hill. In this case, the car rolling afterwards would indicate a hill. But I have only been driving manual for a bit now so I am used to using the parking break. The better question to me is whether or not to leave the car in gear while parked.

505Turbeaux > Justin Hughes 01/08/2015 at 12:09

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hahahaha I am not a mainer either, just been here 11 years now!

brzedr1 > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 01/08/2015 at 12:09

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My thoughts exactly: use the components, they're there on purpose.

It's a newer model. 2000 or later, not sure exactly which year.

If I can't convince him, I'll at least throw down some firewood to use as tire chock.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 12:12

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yeah I just don't get it. is it really that inconvenient to use?!

I use them on our vehicles (except the Montego because I have NO IDEA if it works and I haven't been prepared to experiment yet. I gotta make sure I know how to release it if it's seized before playing that game lol) and I probably always will.

Here's this thing specifically designed to hold your car in place when not moving - nah I don't need that. lol

Justin Hughes > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 12:14

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We moved up around the same time then! I left in 2011. I just couldn't find decent work that paid enough.

505Turbeaux > Justin Hughes 01/08/2015 at 12:15

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ha typical, and housing was never cheap enough to support yourself. Though jobs pay shit. Mass is more expensive but the pay isnt too bad

Klaus Schmoll > Brian Silvestro 01/08/2015 at 12:15

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Why would you use them in a manual? I have never driven anything but manuals and I never use it. Well, except forsnow hoonage and when I play around with it in slow traffic every few months to keep it from seizing up.

Klaus Schmoll > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 01/08/2015 at 12:18

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I have never driven anything but manuals and I always leave it in gear, never use the parking brake. Never had a problem. I think I was told to do so either by my dad or my driving instructor.

JKER > Rock Bottom 01/08/2015 at 12:19

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I can attest to this. Out of three manual cars I've had, all of them have had bad parking brakes at some point.

brzedr1 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 01/08/2015 at 12:23

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For manual cars: always use the parking brake.

The decision to park in a gear vs neutral is an individual one:

My rule: park in gear if there's any chance the car would roll if the hand brake failed.

Especially so if parked in a public lot.. it would add insult to injury if my parking brake broke free and damaged other cars and my own.

On the flip side..If the car is totally stationary when you let off the brake (in neutral), you're probably OK w just the handbrake.

Thanks for your post!

brzedr1 > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 01/08/2015 at 12:24

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This. Exactly this.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 12:25

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I'm glad we agree.

brzedr1 > Justin Hughes 01/08/2015 at 12:28

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My rule of thumb: stop the car with the brake pedal. If there's any movement once you let off your foot, it's not a bad ideal to use the parking break.

Thanks for you input!

Brian Silvestro > Klaus Schmoll 01/08/2015 at 12:28

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I just prefer the handbrake over leaving it in gear

Klaus Schmoll > Brian Silvestro 01/08/2015 at 12:36

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May I ask why?

Justin Hughes > 505Turbeaux 01/08/2015 at 12:37

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Yeah, I was able to restart my computer career when I moved back. Pays much better than driving a delivery truck!

Rock Bottom > JKER 01/08/2015 at 12:37

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Yeah, I use mine all the time in the hopes that it'll keep working! So far, so good.

Brian Silvestro > Klaus Schmoll 01/08/2015 at 12:46

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It's just how I was taught to do it I guess, habit at this point.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 13:04

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No hand release here, when you push it down it ratchets and requires a second push to spring back up. What I end up doing is push to floor, lift leg slightly, push again to unlock it and then I'm free to vary pressure until I lift all the way off of it again.

brzedr1 > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 01/08/2015 at 13:12

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Ahh I thought those types would be the hardest, but I stand corrected. Very cool!

I may or may not do that next snowstorm..

Klaus Schmoll > Brian Silvestro 01/08/2015 at 13:22

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same here. Just that I was taught the other way round. Strange world.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Klaus Schmoll 01/08/2015 at 14:11

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Ive been using both first gear and the handbrake when parking my Miata. Is there any reason why you don't using the brake also? From my understanding, leaving it in gear just gives it more resistance to rolling.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 14:17

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Does it add any additional clutch/transmission wear to leave it in gear? I only ask this because there are not many hills where I live and work, so I am usually parked on level surface. I have just always put it in first because that's the way I learned.

Klaus Schmoll > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 01/08/2015 at 14:32

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The only reason, besides laziness, is that in extreme cold the handbrake can freeze shut. Extremely annoying when that happens. And as to your question to brzedr1: No. No wear or stress on the engine/transmission or clutch.

brzedr1 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 01/08/2015 at 15:26

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When parked, clutch wear will be negligible regardless of whether the transmission is in gear or neutral. (When the clutch pedal is out [i.e. not depressed with your foot], the pressure plate holds the clutch against the flywheel - causing them to spin at the same speed. Conversely, pushing the clutch pedal [toward the floor] separates the clutch from the flywheel, allowing the two to spin independently - so you can change gears.)

The other question is whether or not leaving a transmission in neutral or in gear causes premature wear when parked. The short answer is: no, you'll be OK regardless.

—

The long answer is a bit more complicated, but still comprehensible. To get to it, we need to understand a bit about how "synchronized" transmissions function (any modern transmission will be synchronized).

In modern, synchronized transmissions, there is an input shaft (connected to the clutch) that has a number of gears on it (ex. 5 for a 5-speed trans). These gears mesh with and turn another set of gears (ex. 5) that spin freely around the output shaft.

(So, each 'gear' [ex. 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc.] actually refers to the ratio of two gears: in the lowest gear, 1st, the engine has to spin multiple times to turn the driveshaft once; in the highest gear, 5th in our example, the driveshaft spins multiple times for each turn of the engine; in between the highest and lowest gear is the 1:1 gear (likely 4th in our example), which means that the driveshaft turns once for every one turn of the engine.)

Have I lost you yet? No? Good.

All the time that your transmission input shaft is turning (that is, the engine is running and the clutch isn't slipping), all of the gears inside are also turning. But, if all 5 gears are rotating at different speeds, they can't all be connected to the output shaft, right? Right: only one gear at a time can be connected to and turning the output.

This is where the 'synchronizers come in. And this is where my knowledge lessens, but I'll still try it out..

To change gears, you shift the gear knob: doing so pushes or pulls a 'fork.' This fork will then push a synchronizer (aka synchro) toward an output gear, which locks the output gear to the output shaft. Once these two are locked together, they turn at the same speed: you have now selected that gear ratio and are in that 'gear.'

So, does it damage my transmission to park in gear? And moreover, who cares?

When you park in gear, you're really only locking that gear to the output shaft. This is OK, and sometimes it's preferable: if you're on a hill, and the parking break cable snaps, you want something (i.e. the static engine) to prevent the car from rolling away from moving.

If you're on a flat surface, and the car won't roll away if the parking cable snaps, it doesn't really matter either way.

Hopefully now you have a greater understanding of the mechanics behind your transmission, and when/why to do one or the other. Definitely check out this video below and others online if you're interested to learn more.

Happy motoring!

ETA: I forgot reverse, but add another gear to reverse direction and you've got the core concept..

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > brzedr1 01/08/2015 at 16:08

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As an engineer, I always appreciate in depth answers like this. Thank you for the furthered understanding!

wafflesnfalafel > brzedr1 09/19/2016 at 01:52

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I set the brake every time regardless of transmission. No sense in putting all that stress on the transmission and I sure as heck don’t need my car rolling over somebody.